Lets Talk About the Issue of Transgenderism

So that means, humans can't be animals either cuz of how differently they work.
-- (JimPickens):
@23
Comparing human identity to a bear in a wrestling ring isn’t the argument you think it is. Humans have self-concept, language, and consciousness; bears don’t. Gender dysphoria is a medically recognized condition with documented treatment outcomes. Calling that an ‘illusion’ because it doesn’t fit your intuition is like calling glasses an illusion because eyes don’t naturally see 20/20. Reality isn’t negated by your discomfort with it.
If you truly can’t tell the difference between a trans person and a grizzly, the problem is literacy, not illusion.

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@35
The concern you’re describing is about predators exploiting policy, not about transgender people themselves. That’s a valid topic—but it’s a question of enforcement, not identity.
Where gender-inclusive laws exist, the predicted spike in assaults simply hasn’t happened. Multiple studies across U.S. states and other countries show no link between trans-inclusive restroom policies and an increase in crimes. The ‘predator loophole’ argument is hypothetical, not observed.
If we start designing rights around the assumption that bad actors will impersonate minorities, we’ll erase those minorities entirely. The answer is better safeguards, not scapegoats.

@38
What you're describing doesn't even exist. The most that exists is role-playing and other symbolic exploration of art. We're not talking about art here, are we? So, no, a human cannot be a bear, because they're not even the same species. This is biology, not gender.

Honestly, trans? I see them as normal human beings. Furries, however, is a hole different topic. I don't like them, they behave like, dk bro I don't wanna get warned if I say something wrong.

Of course I'm arguing metaphysics. Metaphysics is how you settle the question. If you're not willing to touch that, then you're right. It's not a debate. Debate would be impossible.

Then the discussion ends on principle. Your framework decides the outcome before any evidence is considered. If you begin from premises like ‘reality is fixed by essence,’ or ‘biology defines all identity,’ or ‘truth must be immutable to be real,’ you’ve already ruled out any evidence that depends on human experience, psychology, or culture. Science and medicine, by contrast, operate inside shared systems of observation and testing: they ask what can be measured and what outcomes follow. Metaphysics can question why those systems exist, but it doesn’t erase what they uncover. When evidence has no standing inside your view, the exchange stops being inquiry and becomes ritual.

I dispute the idea that raw data alone can answer these questions. I'm willing to grant that data on invdividuals with gender disphoria exists, but I do not conclude from such data that their view of themselves corresponds with reality. The conclusion simply doesn't follow. To answer the question, you have to turn to metaphysics because data is just not the kind of thing that can provide an answer, at least not to this question. Hense why I called it a category error.

It does my guy, it does. I could show you german videos of people claiming they're a fox right now. But another topic on its own I guess.
-- (JimPickens):
@38
What you're describing doesn't even exist. The most that exists is role-playing and other symbolic exploration of art. We're not talking about art here, are we? So, no, a human cannot be a bear, because they're not even the same species. This is biology, not gender.

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It's actually not a separate topic. This is the reductio ad absurdum of the gender sex distinction.

Yeah, all of these practices descends from the same line of arguing and reasoning.

Sir-Charlie
You said in #47 that all these practices come from the same line of reasoning. I don’t think that’s right, and the distinction matters.
When someone says they have gender dysphoria and seeks treatment, that’s a clinical diagnosis with specific criteria. There’s documented distress, assessment, treatment protocols, follow-ups, outcomes. When someone online says they “identify as a fox,” that’s… not that. Different claims, different categories.
Bundling them as “one ideology” doesn’t help anyone understand what’s happening. It flattens everything into culture-war noise and makes it impossible to judge specific policies on their own merits.
You’ve said more than once that people shouldn’t be institutionalized or banned from transitioning. That’s a real policy position. The “greater ideological threat” framing erases it by turning the whole thing into a binary: accept all of it or reject all of it. Which side of that do you actually want to be on?
The bathroom point from #35 is a clean example. You said you’re worried about predators exploiting policies, not about trans people themselves. Fine. That’s an implementation question. But where trans-inclusive bathroom policies exist, the predicted spike in assaults hasn’t shown up. The hypothesis didn’t match the data.
I’m not asking you to find this normal or to celebrate it. I’m asking you, if your stated position is “I oppose banning it,” to separate that from the people here who do want bans and are using the ideology frame to justify them.
Because “this is all connected to foxes and absurdity” is the argument people use right before “therefore we need laws against it.” And you’ve already said you oppose those laws. So what, exactly, are you defending?

What difference does a clinical diagnosis make when we're talking about philosophy and the internal logic of an ideology?

Also, creddit where creddit is due. 48 has a point. Opposing the ideology, recognizing it's societal consequences, but being unwilling to take the next step and say we should use the power of the state to suppress it is inconsistent. For once, we agree.

I can't remember if I said it in here but my specific stance is that we should go about disencouraging it and making it as difficult as possible for people to transition. In such conditions it will eventually become a non-issue.
So, I'm not opposed to wielding the power of the state in some aspects, I just believe institutionalisation is a step too far.

Hmm, I merged the threads but the numbering got messed up. I'm wondering if we're fine with this or if we should revert to the way it was before

idk if it's possible to go back? I liked the old thread more to be honest. Like, the new one that was created in reformed. This merge added mehish clutter. Just, close it and keep it or st?
-- (Sir-Charlie):
Hmm, I merged the threads but the numbering got messed up. I'm wondering if we're fine with this or if we should revert to the way it was before

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Reformed thread > old low IQ discourse thread.

I most definitely agree. Mental delusions should be cured, not encouraged and enabled.


-- (Sir-Charlie):
I can't remember if I said it in here but my specific stance is that we should go about disencouraging it and making it as difficult as possible for people to transition. In such conditions it will eventually become a non-issue.
So, I'm not opposed to wielding the power of the state in some aspects, I just believe institutionalisation is a step too far.

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I think that there are 2 types of transgender people. There's a group that truly does resemble both genders, I've seen such people. Too feminine for a man, too masculine for a woman, those people should be supported. Yet, there are also transgender people who do it out of fashion. Their problem, not mine. As long as I'm not forced to be one of them, and as long as they don't physically harm me, I'm fine with them.
Also, I think that they should play in their own sports leagues.

Nah I think the people you're talking about is called Intersex which is something different