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Wróć do Threads Archive#41 Julitka
Arctic, there are some remarks a propos your posts:
1. Programming it's not what can be done here in "just afew days". If you have a programmist nearby, you surely know it.
2. If the programme is buggy, you should report buggs and not saying the developer is stupid and should sell the platform itself. Pajper solves all the problems. He does it slowly, absolutely true, and I explained the reason here, but he does. Especially that he mentioned the slower development of PC client.
3. There's criticism and criticism and that's true. If the criticism here were reasonable and not aggressive, I wouldn't react in such a manner, be sure of that. And that is why I still state that my remark a propos cooperation was o.k. here.
-- (ArcticMoon):
Julitka and Pajper. While I absolutely respect your opinions and feel your anger, there are a few things people are rightfully complaining about. If a program is buggy and slow, people don't tell it to you so they can create more drama, but to point out all the errors. Most of us aren't programmists and we aren't able to do better. That's why each to their own. I, as a russian-hungarian translator, maybe could translate something much better than if a programmist started to do the same. But I'd never be able to write a program myself, which a programmist could do in a few days.
Elten is definitely a great program for those blind folks, who need the simplest and most intuitive interface ever. The community, at which the program is aimed, doesn't really care about snappyness, but as the younger generation started to use Elten, we already see what's wrong.
I'd ddefinitely help if I could, that's mainly why I applied as a moderator. I even wanted to translate Elten into hungarian, so even more folks could join, and then I didn't have enough time so I didn't start working on a proper translation.
However, there's only one problem. When several people sent me the ominous message about discriminating Russia, I felt like my morals can't hold on and help as nothing has happened, so I created a topic, here, in the elten english community.
Cryticism doesn't mean anyone could do better. You don't need to be a Michelin-starred master chef to criticize a food, as well as you don't need to be a programmer to make your concerns about an application. Developers, in fact, need testers, people to tell them about errors and critical bugs, to help them make the said application better. Of course, aggressive criticism is awful, and I don't support that. But saying that if you don't have anything better to do than criticize then cooperate, that's not professional at all, I'm sorry.
I'm sitting next to a programmer every day and see how he works, sometimes develops apps, writes smaller functions, updaters, corrects codes, and he's always up to hear concerns. He's always glad to hear opinions on how he could improve his programs, and doesn't become angry at all if I, for example, tell him hey, this one works awful, do something. Of course not like that, but you get it :)
As far as I know, and even programmers told me, that I write bug reports and suggestions very well, and even if I'm not sure about that, I still believe there's always a solution and for example I can write such reports and suggestions in a way that people don't snap at me and say ok, if you know better, let's cooperate. That's the weapon of the weak ones, I'm sorry to say.
--
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#42 Julitka
I'm a not a server expert. I know only three things:
1. As a NGO we should rent a server in a totally legal way. Especially that all the sensitive data of users would suffer from some manipulations from unsure server holder. So it would be dangerous to rent something from a source not sure enough.
2. I'm not a programmist, so I have to rely on pajper's calculations of server's efficiency. I remember user's complaints, though, when we had another, weaker server, so that is how I conclude we cannot withdraw to a cheaper option.
3. Remember, please, that as a Council Member, I cannot be "a blablabla forum poster". And it is mainly me and pajper that worry about the server. To be honest, we're thinking about many opttions, such as collocation or moving server to another country. But... We can't afford our own server as a newly-formed NGO and cannot have the server somewhere in the middle of nowhere, cause there were at least two emergency situations that technicians had something to change in our server. Three or four hours without Elten that users complaind about and they had right to complain, offcourse. What's more, NGO's page unavailable, many other secondary services too. So if the server were collocated, it should be collocated nearby, and if it is rented, it must stay in a safe place with technicians ready to solve any problems just in a minute. That's the problem.
-- (cyrmax):
Hello, guys.
First of all, it was me who mentioned my programming skills in another topic on this forum.
I said that unfortunately I do not know ruby at all and so I cannot contribute to the development process.
If Elten would have a stable open API, I would write another client in Python or CSharp. But ruby... No, sorry. I do not want to spend my time to learn a new language just to help in developing some buggy network that supports piracy and nazism.
Now about money and server costs... I am very surprised with a price that Julitka mentioned. It is just unreal! Be realistic: Pajper published a link to the server configuration that he uses, and every of you can read it and check its cost.
I have a similar server and pay something about 500 or 600 euros per year.
So before writing nosense messages please read and analyze... Or provide proofs to not be just bla bla bla forum poster.
--
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#43 Julitka
@Arctic one more think: You said you did not start a hungarian translation, cause you didn't have time for voluntary work etc. And that's o.k, I understand it absolutely. But why you do not move this analogy to pajper, then?
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#44 marchoffmann Konto zarchiwizowane
1. Noone said you have to program within a few days, it's about even doing it and not doing it withinn a year for a thing others could reach in a month with care, or is that just me.
2. Noone said pajper is stupid. And we do say what annoys us /our critisism, however, I don't see anyone being agressive here.
And 3. He just breaks his promices. I mean look, if you say I'll be more available for paid users, you know how that sounds like? But we've been through that. But the fact that he even breaks that promice or tryal of his, then he should better not say those things.
#45 marchoffmann Konto zarchiwizowane
And again. Elten has been slow for much more over a year. Idk why it was more berible in 2021 with my slow comp, or parts of 2022 with this one.
#46 Julitka
I cannot refer to Elten's speed, as for me it is fast enough regardless the connection I use. Maybe i'm not a demanding user, who knows, but it's not like few years ago, when it was really annoying. So, well, I cannot discuss with that. As for his availability, as a user I can say he is more available. He didn't say he will be fully available, though. And the term "more" is wide enough, isn't it?
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#47 balteam
On polish forum almost noone or just noone writes that elten is slower than 6 months ago, I guess it won't be so easy to solve this problem.
And here's a lot of people who wanted to have a mobile app and a lot of people who want Pajper to focus on windows app, it means that everytime someone will be dissapointed.
#48 cyrmax
Guys, all those problems with windows app, mobile app, etc app... could be solved with an open API.
For example I can develop applications for iOS and windows and i'd like to create my own client with better logic, maybe caching, maybe more supported formats, codecs, etc.
but there is no API and so we cannot do anything, only contribute to the existing source which is written in language that i do not know at all.
#49 ArcticMoon
As far as I am aware, noone, absolutely noone said Pajper would be stupid. I honestly think he's a cool person, in real life as well, we had a possibility to meet a year ago and if you ask him, I think he also remembers it as a few very well spent hours. :) we, at that time, even talked about the possibility to repeat it with you as well. I personally don't have nothing against him, as I know he has a lot of work and let's be honest, concentrating in thousands of things is impossible.
However, he's programming Elten not only for a year now, but at least 7 or 8, but I may be mistaken. As I've said above, the main community, for which Elten is for, doesn't really notice all the problems with speed, because to be honest, I've never seen an older person using his computer faster than the way Elten works. And it's not criticism towards them, it's a fact and there's nothing wrong with that. They didn't grow up with computers being around them, so how would they know? It's absolutely normal.
The main thng people are complaining to me as a moderator is the fact Pajper reacts slowly, so they want me to act. The problem is my inability. We, moderators still can't ban anyone from conferences, and well, kicking just doesn't work. Who even thought it is going to work if there's no time limit, so after the kick any user can come back endlessly?
Elten is being programmed for years now and there's no flood protection. I don't know how it works in the polish community, if there are such people there as well, but we sometimes have spammers who ruin the experience of other adequate people while they are hanging out in public conferences. That shouldn't ever happen, because a conference system, or even a chat system like that always should need protection against flood. It's critical, and if I had to write a bug report and analyze the situation, I'd say it's as critical, as I'd give it almost the maximum level. I can reproduce the situation anytime, when you need a million characters to be pasted thousands of times and even with two hands you can ruin several computers.
On the other hand, fortunately blind people already aren't desperately wishing for a separate community. They are fine with using discord, telegram, and other messengers for hanging out with their friends. Take it as an example of the collapse of our segregated school system in Hungary. Many years ago it was absolutely fine to go to the school for the blinds, which is only in Budapest. After parents saw that their blind kid also can study integrated, the school already consists of people with other disabilities as well, not only blindness. The system has collapsed that much so those children already need 24:7 availability and help, because otherwise they are simply unable to live. And usual blind folks study integrated, in other schools, in other cities, and so I did anyway.
How is this relevant here? Many years ago, it was fully accepted that blind folks have a separate community, a separate social site (see the existence of Klango), but nowadays fortunately everything becomes more and more accessible, so we are stopping to need that, especially if these platforms don't give us anything new. Let's take an example. Elten gives us the possibility to watch youtube, and hang out almost at the same time, while Foobar2000 offers the possibility to watch youtube much faster, with more intuitive shortcuts (because these hotkeys you set up yourself), so if I wasn't a member of Elten, why would I download it for this feature, if there's a complete mainstream media player which offers the same but in better quality?
Elten offers conferences. The audio quality is high, (as high as you set), and of course, while I can't argue with the fact that not many programs allow us to talk in stereo, a completely new user won't download it for this feature until there is teamtalk, discord, meet, element, messenger, shall I continue?
These social platforms for the blind usually just collect all the people who don't have anything better to do than to sit at home and make up endless drama, especially in the english community. An usual blind person doesn't need that. The only reason why I'm here that often is the fact that I'm a moderator and sometimes I need to solve some problems, which, more often, are beyond my capabilities, because Elten doesn't allow me to solve them.
The problem is that if the main developer refuses to work together with his team who voluntarily help him, then the team voluntarily refuses to help the main developer. It's that simple.
#50 Julitka
The problem is that pajper does not want to reject people that wish to work woluntarily for him. For example, an open api, as far as I know, was started some years ago. What's more, there were afew tries to create it in different languages. Pajper started it for the first time on his own, but being aware it's not possible to build it on his own, he started another API with one of Elten users which declared his ability to help. It all meant rewriting everything from scratch, as the user prefered another framework/language. And what? After afew month this youngster changed his mind, his plans were different and he quitted.
What guarantees should he have after all that sad experiences?
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#51 cyrmax
@ArcticMoon
And again I totally agree with every of your words!
Integrated studying is not so popular in Russia and as i allready told you in private conversation, most of russian blind guys suffer from it.
They cannot socialize in such a big world, cannot normally communicate with sighted people, cannot comfortably study in university, because most of them even do not know how to type texts on their laptop.
In my school even were a situation when me and my friend were chatting and resting on IT lessons while our teacher was explaining to 15 or 16 year old classmates how to find button alt, control, how to create a folder, how to open this folder and create simple text file or copy it to another location.
For me such situation is like what the hell! But most of blind people from my generation are such in IT things.
Regarding Elten and such segregated blind networks and communities:
I understand why AudioGames forum exists. This is a place for games for blind and so as we have special games for blind we need such a forum. In russian community there also exists such a site along with telegram chat and discord and teamtalk servers.
I understand that such networks like elten can help blind people to communicate and share their experince with some devices or situations because for example sighted person will never tell you how to set up a screenreader or how to choose the most accessible audio player for your PC.
But it looks like some people live here in blind networks. Without even trying to communicate with sighted people, find sighted friends, play sighted games, etc.
Even in sighted games they try to separate from others, create a special guild or clan for blind and do not play with other sighted players.
So, these people really live in this segregated virtual world, every day creating drama, oh sorry, maybe not drama but drumma, spreading those ugly gossips about each other, making even their own small clans inside this community, starting virtual wars and making virtual unions against those whom they hate.
For me and for all people who live in real world without such a separation, it looks like some ugly sandbox with people who just afraid of big world and so isolate themselves.
A very toxic, strange sandbox with jokes that are not understandable by anyone outside of that community, with local informal rules, with strange freaks who try to spread their influence, etc.
Finaly, i do not want to tell anything bad about certain people, but in general all of those communities look like that.
#52 Julitka
Feel like we're mixing different topics here. :) I'd like to read what you think a propos, as it is a really nice topic to discuss and I agree to a big extend, but not here.
-- (cyrmax):
@ArcticMoon
And again I totally agree with every of your words!
Integrated studying is not so popular in Russia and as i allready told you in private conversation, most of russian blind guys suffer from it.
They cannot socialize in such a big world, cannot normally communicate with sighted people, cannot comfortably study in university, because most of them even do not know how to type texts on their laptop.
In my school even were a situation when me and my friend were chatting and resting on IT lessons while our teacher was explaining to 15 or 16 year old classmates how to find button alt, control, how to create a folder, how to open this folder and create simple text file or copy it to another location.
For me such situation is like what the hell! But most of blind people from my generation are such in IT things.
Regarding Elten and such segregated blind networks and communities:
I understand why AudioGames forum exists. This is a place for games for blind and so as we have special games for blind we need such a forum. In russian community there also exists such a site along with telegram chat and discord and teamtalk servers.
I understand that such networks like elten can help blind people to communicate and share their experince with some devices or situations because for example sighted person will never tell you how to set up a screenreader or how to choose the most accessible audio player for your PC.
But it looks like some people live here in blind networks. Without even trying to communicate with sighted people, find sighted friends, play sighted games, etc.
Even in sighted games they try to separate from others, create a special guild or clan for blind and do not play with other sighted players.
So, these people really live in this segregated virtual world, every day creating drama, oh sorry, maybe not drama but drumma, spreading those ugly gossips about each other, making even their own small clans inside this community, starting virtual wars and making virtual unions against those whom they hate.
For me and for all people who live in real world without such a separation, it looks like some ugly sandbox with people who just afraid of big world and so isolate themselves.
A very toxic, strange sandbox with jokes that are not understandable by anyone outside of that community, with local informal rules, with strange freaks who try to spread their influence, etc.
Finaly, i do not want to tell anything bad about certain people, but in general all of those communities look like that.
--
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#53 ArcticMoon
Julitka, what you write is already heavily generalizing and putting everyon under the same hat. How do you know for a fact that for example such an experienced developer as Cyrmax would leave you all behind?
#54 Julitka
The problem is I cannot know. :( Especially knowing the fact he's a professional. Maybe for example by the fact that, calculating his own profits, financial needs and time and other factors, he may some day just say "sorry, it's not for me, I'm a professional and have to survive and work for my own". It wouldn't be just unfair, as it is all right. But I think pajper, from the other side, would suffer much. The other tries were also optimistic with no negative predictions for the future.
-- (ArcticMoon):
Julitka, what you write is already heavily generalizing and putting everyon under the same hat. How do you know for a fact that for example such an experienced developer as Cyrmax would leave you all behind?
--
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#55 Julitka
Especially that Cyrmax is fully aware that the era of platforms such as Elten is just gone. What a pleasure to involve in the project ideologically dying? I don't mean Elten itself, but just the whole idea behind. And, what is more, I've never forbidden Cyrmax to contact pajper in this matter. :)
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#56 cyrmax
@ArcticMoon
The problem is not that i am experienced or not.
Yes, if needed i can create such a network.
I even can call for several friends who will help me with a quick start just for fun and good time coding together. We love it and we cannot live without programming.
But the problem is that i will never create such a network like elten without someone paying me for my work, because i do not need such segregation of blind people. so i do not need this. if someone pays, i will work and present the completed product to my customer.
#57 Julitka
Yup, just what I said. :)
- Klatki – odpowiedziała. – Czekania za kratami, aż zmęczenie i starość każą się z nimi pogodzić, aż wszelka nadzieja wielkich czynów nie tylko przepadnie, lecz straci powab.
#58 pajper
There is a mechanism to all this. The programmer is rarely determined by the language.
Sure, we all have our favorite languages and preferences, but basically I've never seen a major project being complained that a developer chose language X. Moreover, there are developers who didn't know and don't like Ruby and were still involved in Elten development.
For a programmer, learning the basics of another language is a job for several dozen minutes.
Shoot for the Moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.
#59 ArcticMoon
Yes, Cyrmax derailed the topic a little :)
What I said about integration was just an example, an analogy, it wasn't an experiment to derail the topic somewhere, what doesn't relate here at all.
#60 pajper
By the way banning users in conferences is possible since 2.5. Just ban them in the group and done.
And if user is not a group member, you can add him/her and ban then.
Shoot for the Moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.